Peter Rollins chat transcript

Peter Rollins did a twitter chat interview with Third Way Magazine yesterday. I put together a transcript for those who would be interested. It was fun to see Peter limited to short answers (twitter only allows messages to be 140 characters long), as he usually has long, detailed responses which bunny-trail in several different directions (and you wonder why I like him!). I cleaned it up a little to get rid of text-speak and possible confusion from the letter limit.

---------------------------------
Third Way: We should get this one in first. Someone asked: 'If I've never heard of you, can you sum yourself up in 140 characters?'

Peter Rollins: Orthodox heretic, a/theist, Christian in the non-Christian sense of the term, bluffer and lover of Columbo

We'll get to some of that but, first, 'Orthodox heretic' sounds like an oxymoron, or is that a false opposition?

Orthodox is often thought to mean 'right belief', but perhaps it is better thought of as 'right praise'... in this way one can be orthodox while being a heretic... i.e. living in praise while acknowledging that we get God wrong

So to be orthodox, or to be heretic, or to be an orthodox heretic – are these things we should have as ambitions?

Being a heretic is not enough. There are good and bad heretics. One must try to be an orthodox one. A heretic who tries to live in love.

Also, being orthodox is not enough... without acknowledging you are a heretic pride can enter

How can you authentically praise something if you know you might be wrong about what you're praising?

If I fall in love I may not know what would please the person, but I act with the best knowledge I have, & in fear and trembling. certainty is not needed in order to act... love is!

@rhull56 asks 'What convinces Peter that the idea of God is worth taking seriously?'

Philosophers take the question seriously. Not so sure Christians should... Christians should b more interested in Christ-living

Wow... its hard getting big concepts shoe-horned into twitter (good question BTW)

Then perhaps he'd add 'Why Christ?' In the book you adapt Buddhist tales, for example.

Because the life (of Christ) that we read of is a radical one that, if followed, could lead to the continued transformation of society... Christianity, I believe is a radical faith based upon a radical idea. But I think that much of the actually existing churches misses this...

Perhaps only Marxists are as guilty as Christians of misrepresenting their founder

The shoe-horn point: The Orthodox Heretic reminds us that Jesus spoke to uneducated 1st Century peasants. Should all theology be that digestible?

We need to distinguish between theology & the truth of faith. The former is intellectually demanding the later is life demanding. Jesus was mostly about the truth rather than theology.

Not that theology is wrong at all! Its just not true :)

When Jesus spoke of the Father, was that true?

Yes & No. God as a Father 'yes', but as any kind of Father we experience 'no'. This 'yes/no' operates in all theology. It reveals something which remains all the time concealed. Belief should not be read as empirical certainty. Belief is more than this, it involves doubt, commitment, hope, faith and desire

Where does that leave the creeds? The 'We believe'?

The creeds attempt to help re-orient our lives, so that those 'beliefs' become modes of being. We come to live the death and resurrection. When we say, 'I believe in the resurrection' we primarily commit ourselves to becoming the site of new life to those around us. It is not primarily a mere intellectual assent.

There's nothing simple about a fable, but this book is more accessible than the others. What was the thinking behind that?

Buddhism has koans to draw out Enlightenment, we have parables... I wanted to explore this. I think attempting to change how people think is limited. I want to transform who we are. Parables are a mode of doing this.

these fables will get used by preachers. If each reader is the writer, how do we build one united body of believers?

We are unified not by shared belief but by a love and commitment to the same source. Unity in difference. We are often not good at this.

How might that work in practice? Between, say, Bishops Robinson & Akinola?

The creation of suspended space in which liberal & conservative lay down their positions in the liturgical hour2encounter each other. This is the place of 'neither/nor'... neither Jew nor Greek, Gay nor Straight, liberal nor conservative.

It is a participation in the divine Kenosis (see Philippians 2:7: "Jesus made himself nothing...") in which God is emptied of all identity. We do this and take on the identity of Christ.

you suggest that Jesus' teaching was often audience-specific, changing according to context. So was he a moral relativist?

No, he was driven by love. The issue however is that love is not possible to pin down. When we make love concrete we distort love... but we must do this anyway. Love is what drives us, but when we put it in to action it will look different in different contexts

in some tales you, the writer, imagine new words into his (Jesus) mouth. But yet you also warn against personal conceptions of God?

Both under-describing and over-describing are strategies for making sure we do not reduce God to our understanding. The Bible does both. God is given various personalities (warrior, peacemaker, unchanging, changing) & also we are told God is un-nameable.

The point of these parables is not to describe something but to perform something... Parables are a performative discourse

Thanks very much Pete. One final question from @sch3lp: 'What's the dynamic between story, its teller and its hearer?'

hmmm Story is like the child, teller is like the mother and the hearer is like one who adopts the child
---------------------------------

Let me know your thoughts! I especially enjoyed the distinction he made between, theology and the life of faith, as well as the thoughts on belief and certainty.

re-learning old practices

For 3 years I lived according to a certain routine that brought me closer to God than I had ever been before. It was such a formative and beautiful time in my life even though it consisted of long days going in multiple directions, lots of emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual stretching, and intense practice of the disciplines. But somehow over time I began to weaken. The things that had given so much life now seemed to suck me dry.

I have gone through a process for several years where nearly everything in my life has been shaken and torn down. My beliefs, my dreams, my actions, my worldview, my identity. It has been the most difficult thing I have ever experienced. Often I thought I was dying. Now I'm certain that I was. I didn't understand it at the time, but now I see that I had accidentally built all of these good practices and beliefs over the top of insecurity and fear. Instead of bringing life and healing to the broken places of my life, I tried to cover up and ignore the painful things. I was trying to earn love instead of receiving it with grace. God had to tear everything to the ground so he could fix my cracked foundation. I had to become a failure in my own eyes in order to really accept that God loved me anyway- even when I had nothing to offer.

This last year has been a time of rebuilding, but I have really struggled with implementing the old practices I had learned. I have been extremely hesitant to enter back into anything that looks like what I did during my furnace years- prayer, reading Scripture, passionate worship, and spiritual disciplines. I don't want to fall back into the old patterns again. Even though I know these practices are essential, I haven't re-learned how to join these spiritual practices with the other aspects of my life in a that supplements my whole life in a healthy way. The only way I knew how to pray or worship or lead was an channeled around an attempt to ignore or hide the brokenness in my heart.

I've been trying to learn, and it has been very up and down. This year I've been trying to take time 3x a day to pray using a Celtic Daily Prayer book. It has been so helpful because most days I don't have my own words to pray. I have needed to read the prayers of fellow Christians from hundreds of years ago, and I've found them to so often resonate with my heart. But even then there have been many days I just haven't wanted to even try that much. I have discovered that on the days I feel good I don't take the time to pray. And often on the days I'm most hurting I will avoid any time with God even though I knew that I needed him to do something.

This morning I realized a few things. First, that I've been subtly thinking of God like a doctor or counselor. I only go to him when I have something wrong. I only share my thoughts so he will tell me what's wrong and fix them. I am still living in a reactionary way, looking for a quick answer to get me better so I can keep running along and being 'normal'. I think I understood this on some level, which is why I would avoid God when I was really struggling. I knew God is more than medication and didn't want to treat him like that.

The odd thing is that I go to my parents when I am hurt physically or emotionally. I talk to them about what is happening, but I don't think of them as a doctor or counselor. I have a deeper relationship with them than just 'fixing' me. I just don't know how to really walk with God like a parent, even though the Bible is full or fatherly and motherly descriptions of God.

The other little thing that came to mind is that the times I set aside for focused prayer are not supposed to be about being more prayerful or spiritual or obedient. I want to learn to pray and worship all day in everything I do, not just at 3 set times during the day, and I found myself dreading those prayer times because I didn't want to get back into the habit of believing that certain times or places or things are more 'spiritual' or 'godly' than others. But these times can be a way of setting my direction for the day, of choosing how I want to live this day. When I am driving on the freeway, I only rarely need to turn the steering wheel but I am driving the entire time. On some trips I might go for hours straight ahead, but other times I will need to constantly be turning corners or avoiding other cars. So maybe I can learn to be aware of where I currently am in my life, and adopt a lifestyle of prayer that is dynamic to that. It's always good to set a direction when you begin a journey, and you will need to change your course throughout, but whether you are turning or going straight ahead or even stopped on the side of the road for a break, it is still all part of the same journey.

I know these aren't really new ideas to most of you, but I wanted to process them and record what I'm learning so they didn't slip away. This has become a little more real to me today and I wanted to share it with my friends.

questions from "The Orthodox Heretic"

Here are some of the questions that I draw from the story of "The Orthodox Heretic".

The first point the town leaders bring up is that they need to return the man to the government he escaped from so that the rest of the town is not endangered. They know that this man will be punished by the authorities, but they believe that it has to be done or the entire town will suffer. In their view, the good of many outweighs the good of one. The caretaker, however, is more concerned with the needs of this man he has rescued. His view is not a selfish one of "my good is higher than the good of all", but is completely unselfish in that he is willing to suffer to protect this criminal. He believes that as a community, the needs of the most vulnerable should be the concern of the entire town, and that nobody in the town is okay if even one member is not okay.

"The good of the many outweighs the good of the few" is a very dominant philosophy in the US, especially when it comes to the systems our country is built on. But these assumptions are currently under heavy discussion, from government to business to military to foreign aid. How does the circumstance of the few affect the many? What are alternative understandings of the relationship between the many and the few? As Christians, how do we find our position impacted by the Bible, both specific instances but also the larger story arcs of Scripture?

Another question that I find in this parable has to do with "truth" and "love". The town leaders seem to have political truth, Scriptural truth, and even God's audible voice on their side, but the caretaker appears to be completely motivated by love for this stranger, even at the cost of his own life. Now I'm not trying to create an artificial division between truth and love, but I can sure think of times where I've been stuck in a position similar to this. Is it better to have truth or love? Is there ever a time they can or should put placed "against" each other? Is it possible that both positions in this story (and in some of our daily stories) are "right"?

Finally, I think it asks the question of how to respond to people with completely different world views, especially when those world views can be backed up with the Bible. I am increasingly aware that anybody can make the Bible say anything they want, and I'm sure most of us have seen plenty of evidence for that too. Many people leave behind Scripture at this point, because they think it doesn't have anything solid or true to say and can too easily be abused or manipulated, or they cling to one interpretation of Scripture at the exclusion of any differing understanding. Take a look at the 20th century phenomenon known as "liberalism vs. fundamentalism" to prove my point. Both of these ideologies tend to be reactionary, angry, and violent (not physically (at least in the USA), but emotionally and verbally). I don't think either approach is sufficient or helpful for moving forward, and this parable forces us to address this roadblock head on.

The parable gives value to, and even supports, BOTH viewpoints, while leaving us with the awkward feeling that both parties are simultaneously right AND wrong. We can see the reason behind why each group acts the way they do, while not being completely satisfied with either group's choices. And this dis-satisfaction leaves us humble, looking for another way, open to new ideas from God, because we realize that even with the best theology and best actions, we desperately need God's help to understand and obey him.

some thoughts about "The Orthodox Heretic"

A couple weeks ago I posted the video clip of a parable from Peter Rollins new book "The Orthodox Heretic". One of my friends, Matt, commented on the post and asked me to post some of my thoughts about the story. I didn't want to right away, for a few reasons. I didn't really know what I thought about it. That's kind of why I posted it.

I think the intention of the parable is not to declare some truth about God or people or religion, but to force us to think about something we otherwise probably wouldn't think about (or maybe even ignore because we don't WANT to think about it). I think the temptation is to dissect the story and try to place it into a category that gives us some form of stand-alone truth, or make it fit the mold we expect it to fit. But that's not what the story is about, and if we do that, then the story loses it's power.

I've listened to it a few times and I'm never comfortable with it. It doesn't resolve nicely. It doesn't offer a clear division between the "good guys" and the "bad guys". It doesn't try to give simple answers to complex questions. Instead, it asks questions that are difficult and frustrating. But at the same time, they are questions that align pretty closely with paradoxes I keep running into in my own walk with God.

Here's a couple observations:
He doesn't set the town leaders/religious people against the care-taker. Both disagree completely on how to handle the situation, but they treat each other with respect, civility, and love throughout. Both groups are shown to be people who honor God and take obedience very seriously (yes, even in the very last scene).

Notice that the "criminal" is charged with being critical of both the state and the church, and yet a God-follower takes him in and cares for him.

Peter has said in other places that the main question behind this parable (and his entire book) is (and I'm paraphrasing) "What do you do when in order to obey God, you have to disobey God? What do you do when in order to keep your beliefs, you have to betray your beliefs? What do you do when in order to remain "orthodox", you have to take a "heretical" position?"

The idea is that Christianity is constantly at odds with itself, because it is an institution that is against all institution and a religion that is against all religion. That Christianity draws a circle around who is in and who is out, and then immediately demands it's followers to leave the inside and go to the ones who are out, so in a sense those who remain "in" the safety of the circle become the ones who are now "out". It is full of what seems to be contradictions, and we Christians have caused immense amounts of pain and confusion because we try to ignore the contradictions and build a nice safe theology that tries to make everything okay. Now that in and of itself is worthy of a whole series of blog posts, but I don't want to get side tracked by spending any more time on that now.

I've got some of my own questions that were raised from this parable, and I'll post them next time in order to make this shorter and (hopefully) slightly more readable. The good news is that I've already written it all, so I'm not going to bail on you half way through like I did with the Great Emergence series...

who are you?

From Rob Bell's counselor, when Rob was breaking down from being the "successful pastor", trying to always be everything to everyone:


"You're job is the relentless pursuit of who God made you to be. Anything else is sin."


Who are you?

rise

I made this piece today at work for one of our employee's blogs. He likes to use the phrase "disturbed, yet hopeful" as a way of describing his perspective on the orphan crisis that World Orphans is involved in changing. The first thing that came to my mind was a sunrise: light chasing away darkness. I also had the idea of a black and white city that is lit up and colored with love- that has been bouncing around in my head for a while, so this was a chance to try that out as well. And there is a little influence from Robbie Seay Band... I really like how it turned out, so I thought I'd share it on here.

You can see the whole image by clicking on the sample below.

We need the orphan as much as the orphan needs us

I live in a new suburb of the nice part of a city known nationwide for being the unofficial capitol of conservative Christianity, Colorado Springs. You could watch the local news for weeks straight and not see any stories about real crime in this city of somewhere around 600,000 people. In other words, you could say I live among some of the richest, safest, and most comfortable people in the world. I guess this should be a good thing, but sometimes I walk around outside and feel like I live in Disneyland. Like none of this is real.

It's real easy to start to think that my life is just about me. After all, I'm bombarded by about 3000 advertisements everyday, all trying to convince me that I am in need of something to be more successful, happy, and comfortable, and their product or idea or system is just what I need. And of course, the product can be completely customized to meet my individual needs. I'm the customer who is always right, and the consumer who always wants to "have it my way".

You see, I don't actually know any poor people. In American terms, nobody would consider me wealthy- I'm a 27 year old kid who works for a non-profit! But from a global perspective, I'm a king (check out Global Rich List sometime to see where you fit in on the global wealth scale- you'll be shocked). The fact that you are reading this post online, in English, means you are probably doing pretty well too. If you have a car, you are immediately in the top 8% of the world. I don't know what that means for those of us who have 2, or 3, or 4...

Please don't over react and think I'm saying that money is evil and we should just burn it all (although the pyrotechnic in me might enjoy THAT bonfire!). It's nothing more than a tool. What I'm saying is that we, meaning you and me and our friends and family, are probably in danger of losing perspective on what life is about. Because we like to think it's about our needs and desires and happiness. The only problem is that that's not what the Bible says.

The over-arching theme of the Bible is about a God who hears the cry of the oppressed and rescues them. But what happens is that those rescued people quickly forget what it's like to be at the bottom, and soon become the oppressors. God tries to warn them, to remind them of who they were and what He did for them, but if they don't repent, something interesting happens. Remember, God always hears the cries of the oppressed, and He will rescue them. Which is not as fun if you are the one doing the oppressing.

When I think of this, I realize that I live in the richest, most powerful country ever. And I don't often hear the cries of despair and pain that come from the forgotten, abused, and forsaken, because I don't even see them. But God does, and He is on their side. I have to ask, which side am I on? Do my actions, decisions, dreams, and prayers lean toward those who are underfoot or to those who are standing tall and proud on the backs of the least? Am I working against God when I think I am following Him?

I worship a God who made Himself nothing, who left His rightful high and lofty place to live among the poor and forgotten, and who even allowed them to end His life of love (Philippians 2). But I, by accident of birth, find myself among the rich, and I don't want to humble myself to serve those just a little less privileged than me. I'd rather focus on my wants and desires, trying to make my life a little better. I even tend to view salvation as something for me, another product that is good for me to buy, one more thing to give me the life I want. Have I become a consumer of God rather than a follower of Christ? Have I become a taker instead of a giver? If I truly follow Christ, if I really want to be like Jesus, how can that path lead anywhere but lower and lower?

This is why I need the orphan. The orphan may need my help for real, physical needs in a broken and hurting world. But I need the orphan for my own salvation. I am in danger of hoarding more and more wealth for myself in bigger retirement accounts while ignoring the hungry all around (Luke 12:13). The orphan reminds me that I've been blessed to be a blessing. I'm in danger of focusing on my own comfort to the extent that I isolate myself from the poor (Luke 16:19). The orphan reminds me that if I separate from the poor, I'm also hiding from God. I'm in danger of saying to God "Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking," and hearing in reply "You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here" (Matthew 7:21 Message). The orphan reminds me that God is not a genie in a bottle waiting to make my life better, but that I should be attentive to his voice and respond with love for those he loves.

But bigger than all that, I am in danger of missing the opportunity to join with God -who loves the whole world- in his beautiful project of redeeming his entire creation, not just me. He is inviting us, his children, to partner with him in the thing he cares most about, the thing he gave his life for. He is inviting us to be more like him. To give up our own lives to love, to serve, to share joy, to offer hope, to proclaim freedom, and to actually live to the fullest. Do we truly believe we can be like him? Do we truly believe the Spirit of God dwells in us? Do we really love the world so much that we will give our life for those who don't love us back, just like Jesus did?

We need the orphan because we have so many influences distracting us from the real point of life. The cry of the oppressed can pierce the siren call of self-love and refocus us on God's self-giving-love. The point is not to be moved by guilt or even by extreme need. The point is to spend time with the one who loved us first, to love him back, and to love the world just like he does. What could be a better life than that? It seemed to be good enough for Jesus.